Luis Robert cleared to sign with teams

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mhardy_03
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Re: Luis Robert cleared to sign with teams

Postby mhardy_03 » Sat May 20, 2017 11:57 pm

R27 wrote:Sounds like he is finalizing a deal with the White Sox between $25M-30M. The Cardinals reportedly had a higher offer than the White Sox, but the White Sox apparently "wowed" him during their meeting.

Are you serious? Unbelievable... Team consistently gets overbid for players and now bids the most and still doesn't get him...
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Re: Luis Robert cleared to sign with teams

Postby R27 » Mon May 22, 2017 11:27 am

mhardy_03 wrote:
R27 wrote:Sounds like he is finalizing a deal with the White Sox between $25M-30M. The Cardinals reportedly had a higher offer than the White Sox, but the White Sox apparently "wowed" him during their meeting.

Are you serious? Unbelievable... Team consistently gets overbid for players and now bids the most and still doesn't get him...

Well, more info came out over the weekend. Sounds like the Cardinals were not the team that outbid the White Sox after all. But the White Sox were not the biggest offer he got. Seems like the Cardinals decided how much they decided he was worth, made the offer and stuck to it. Which has worked out so famously for them, right?

I just don't understand how you let that happen if you're Mo and the Cards. I'd rather overpay a 19 year old by several million dollars than a 30 year old in free agency.

This team needs a dynamic core-level hitter. Has needed one since Taveras died because Mo had paved Taveras' path to the Majors. By all accounts, Robert had the potential to be that. Mo needed to be asking himself, if not Robert, who? Because I don't see it. No high draft picks this year. International signing cap penalties for two years. Unable to consistently win in free agency. Not to mention the rarity that is players worth having hitting free agency.

The only answer here was to pay Robert whatever it took to get him. The Cardinals have insisted on keeping their prospects, which I understand and can defend, but have also touted the fact that they have cash. But when it comes time to spend it, they choke.
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Re: Luis Robert cleared to sign with teams

Postby marteezy » Wed May 24, 2017 9:04 am

Stuff like this keeps happening because their sells pitch sucks. Best fans in baseball. Winning tradition. Blah blah blah. They are just going to have to make some bills moves at some point. Or figure out why they aren't a desired destination.
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Re: Luis Robert cleared to sign with teams

Postby R27 » Wed May 24, 2017 10:43 am

marteezy wrote:Stuff like this keeps happening because their sells pitch sucks. Best fans in baseball. Winning tradition. Blah blah blah. They are just going to have to make some bills moves at some point. Or figure out why they aren't a desired destination.

I think the thing that drove me crazy was Mo going, "I don't second guess our approach or second guess our strategy."

As I summed it up when I wrote about it, the Cardinals say they'll "redeploy" the money not spent on Robert elsehwere, but that's what they've always said. For two years now we've heard about how much money they have to spend and they're willing to spend it, but it hasn't made a difference in their approach. This team is a player short. Robert was a golden opportunity. The Cardinals choked. It's a familiar story. But actions speak louder than words.

If you're not willing to go after what you need, it doesn't matter how much money you have.
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Re: Luis Robert cleared to sign with teams

Postby marteezy » Wed May 24, 2017 9:05 pm

This is what I've been saying for years. They need to make a splash at some point. Recently, the players they've invested in have not worked. And the bat that they've determined is the core of the offense, Matt Carpenter is far from a centerpiece.

It'll be interesting to see how this thing plays itself out over the next couple years.
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Re: Luis Robert cleared to sign with teams

Postby R27 » Wed May 24, 2017 11:36 pm

marteezy wrote:This is what I've been saying for years. They need to make a splash at some point. Recently, the players they've invested in have not worked. And the bat that they've determined is the core of the offense, Matt Carpenter is far from a centerpiece.

It'll be interesting to see how this thing plays itself out over the next couple years.

I've always likened Carpenter to Matt Holliday as a hitter. And to borrow some easier to grasp vocabulary from a pitching staff, they are both very good #2 guys, but neither are a legitimate ace.

I've been a big defender over the years of the Cardinals and their spending and the way they've operated their organization. But if they're not aiming to be anything more than mediocre, I really don't know what the point is in watching them. I'm tired of all talk and no action. I'm tired of hoping for something more than they are.
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Re: Luis Robert cleared to sign with teams

Postby cardinalfan4life » Thu May 25, 2017 12:21 am

the last "ACE" hitter we had in the franchise was Albert Pujols, haven't had a true hitter since that makes a pitcher say..."I really don't wanna see that guy up in a clutch situation".(just stating the fact here ya'll)

Im getting inpatient with this offense, we need a complete hitter or two in this club. I, don't know if Roberts was that or not, but at 19 I woulda been willing to pony up. Does this franchise care about winning?
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Re: Luis Robert cleared to sign with teams

Postby marteezy » Thu May 25, 2017 9:32 am

R27 wrote:I've always likened Carpenter to Matt Holliday as a hitter. And to borrow some easier to grasp vocabulary from a pitching staff, they are both very good #2 guys, but neither are a legitimate ace.


Not to make this a Matt Carpenter discussion, but in a way it kinda is.

I see him as a Juan Encarnacion type of hitter. Far from a threat but effective if there are thumpers around him. Today we don't have a Pujols. Carpenter is cast as that guy is he doesn't have the skills to play that role. He strikeout way too much and he doesn't produce as many runs as you'd like.

Since his breakout season he has firmly established himself as a .272 hitter that will hit 20-25 homers and drive in 70-80 runs. He isn't a good defender, he doesn't have speed and he's gonna strikeout 120 times.

That isn't even a legit number 2 threatening hitter. We need a stud. And this team needs to make a play, somehow to get a legit stud. If it means moving Carpenter I'd do it.
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Re: Luis Robert cleared to sign with teams

Postby R27 » Thu May 25, 2017 9:40 am

cardinalfan4life wrote:the last "ACE" hitter we had in the franchise was Albert Pujols, haven't had a true hitter since that makes a pitcher say..."I really don't wanna see that guy up in a clutch situation".(just stating the fact here ya'll)

Well, we've had several. Holliday was one of the best hitters with RISP in the league during his time here. There was a two year period where Allen Craig was the most productive hitter per at bat in baseball. And Matt Carpenter's RBI rate this year is an astounding 22% (though it's been higher). But since Pujols, we've not had a guy who could consistently take over a game offensively and win it single-handedly.

As my Dad once told me, the best thing about Pujols was that you could almost count on him winning at least one game of a playoff series single-handedly. He points to 2011 NLCS Game 2 Cardinals down 0-1 in the series where he went 4-for-5 with 3 doubles a HR and 5 RBI. And 2011 World Series Game 3 where he hit 3 home runs with the series tied 1-1.

That's ultimately where we miss a guy like Chris Carpenter and a guy like Pujols. Guys who could, on a regular basis, just take control of a game. I love the story about the final game in 2011 where La Russa was worried about his bullpen and Carp reportedly told him not to worry about it because they wouldn't need it, and he goes out and throws a 2 hitter.

Martinez and Lynn have both shown flashes of being able to be that kind of pitcher (it's part of the reason I insist the Cards need to bring Lynn back at all costs), but we don't have a hitter who really has that ability.

cardinalfan4life wrote:Im getting inpatient with this offense, we need a complete hitter or two in this club. I, don't know if Roberts was that or not, but at 19 I woulda been willing to pony up. Does this franchise care about winning?

But ultimately this is the question that I fought so hard against. Of course they care about winning. But the more I look at it, they only seem to care about winning insomuch that their business model requires it. Fan support, which the majority of is derived from winning, takes a team that is otherwise bottom-10 in market size and makes them a top-10 revenue team. Other teams in similarly sized markets don't have payroll even close to St. Louis'.

So to an extent, they have to win. But they don't care about building a team that could be considered the best. Plus I think missing out in 2004 and 2005 with ridiculously good teams and then winning in 2006 and 2011 with teams that barely squeaked in altered their thinking a bit to focusing on building just to make the playoffs and let the chips fall where they may.
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Re: Luis Robert cleared to sign with teams

Postby mhardy_03 » Thu May 25, 2017 10:16 am

marteezy wrote:
R27 wrote:I've always likened Carpenter to Matt Holliday as a hitter. And to borrow some easier to grasp vocabulary from a pitching staff, they are both very good #2 guys, but neither are a legitimate ace.


Not to make this a Matt Carpenter discussion, but in a way it kinda is.

I see him as a Juan Encarnacion type of hitter. Far from a threat but effective if there are thumpers around him. Today we don't have a Pujols. Carpenter is cast as that guy is he doesn't have the skills to play that role. He strikeout way too much and he doesn't produce as many runs as you'd like.

Since his breakout season he has firmly established himself as a .272 hitter that will hit 20-25 homers and drive in 70-80 runs. He isn't a good defender, he doesn't have speed and he's gonna strikeout 120 times.

That isn't even a legit number 2 threatening hitter. We need a stud. And this team needs to make a play, somehow to get a legit stud. If it means moving Carpenter I'd do it.

If it's a Carpenter discussion, let's at least be realistic about him then. Carpenter and Holliday aren't the same hitter, but they are a lot closer than you give them credit for.

Carpenter:
Career: .282/.376/.463/.839, 129 OPS+
Best year: .318/.392/.481/.873, 140 OPS+
Next best years: 136 (2016), 135 (2015), 125 (2012), 125 (2017 so far)
His worst season (2014, 112 OPS+ with .750 OPS) is basically the same as Encarnacion's best.

Holliday:
Career: .302/.382/.515/.897, 134 OPS+
Best year: .296/.388/.525/.912, 151 OPS+
Next best years: 150 (2007), 149 (2010), 142 (2013), 140 (2009)

Encarnacion was pretty much a league average hitter:
Career: .270/.317/.441/.758, 97 OPS+
Best year: .287/.349/.447/.795, 113 OPS+
Had just 2 full seasons out of 8 where he was over 100 (and the other was 101).

Encarnacion was much closer to Adams than he is Carpenter and actually Adams so far in his career has been better. Carpenter is always criminally underrated. He isn't at Holliday's level and I agree he shouldn't be the best hitter on the team. Ideally he is a #2 hitter both in order and quality, but he isn't anywhere close to similar to Encarnacion lol.

Of course Carpenter hasn't been much in the way of RBI because he has batted leadoff for pretty much all of his career until this year (2205 of his 3194 PA) and 2nd for a majority of the rest of his career (510 PA), but he has scored a LOT of runs, as you would expect. And this year, if you project out his RBI numbers, he is on pace for over 100, even with his low batting average.

He is a heck of a hitter, but we agree he shouldn't be the best hitter on the team.
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